Mitzi and Scott share their fascinating journey together with Kristy–while both have experienced faith crises and have transitioned out of orthodoxy, Mitzi continues to attend while Scott has taken a step back from activity. They discuss the difficult topic of porn and its effects on Mormon marriages, particularly their own, how orthodox messaging about it can hurt, and how they have strengthened their relationship through openness, vulnerability, and radical empathy for each other’s journeys. Suicidal ideation is discussed sensitively and powerfully–the love they share as they support each other through rough territory is palpable. They that telling their story will help other individuals and couples who are trying to navigate the porn issue and a healthy marriage.
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Mitzi and Scott – thanks for sharing this very personal (and I suspect VERY typically) experiences. I hope the best for the two of you!
Thank you very much. It has been a rough road, but this process has help us to understand, appreciate, and love each other on new and wonderful levels. We have seen so many loved ones in both of our lives let their beliefs about porn and what it means destroy their marriages and happiness. We hope this story helps people see that it doesn’t have to be this way.
Scott, You have a strong good wife. Mitzi, You have a brave good husband.
Although I’m still not comfortable with some types of porn, I have come to the conclusion that shaming over it makes it worse and also more desirable. Kudos to this couple for accepting that sexuality is a rich part of our existence and being open to devolving that in their marriage.
I don’t think one has to be comfortable with, or even accepting of pornography, to agree with the notion that the LDS church promotes ideas about human sexuality that are incorrect, at best, and are harmful to individuals and families. Scott makes it clear that his despair was a result of the teachings about sexuality, and once he got past that, he could develop a holistic view of himself a full human. Pornography can create a number of problems with our understanding of sexuality and intimacy (not to mention that much of it reinforces misogyny and perpetuates rape culture), however, the LDS church’s teachings about pornography and sexuality are a threat to marriages and families because they create the idea that any deviation from an impossible (and unnatural) ideal becomes an impassible barrier to love between partners and to being a person of worth.
David, thank you for your thoughtful comment. I absolutely agree that acknowledging that some of the church’s teachings about sexuality are unhelpful and even damaging does not require a person to be comfortable with or accepting of pornography. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife referred to pornography as a “morally complex” issue and I think that frames it very well. I understand that there is a lot of pornography that is highly problematic for the way it is produced (i.e. coercion, exploitation, and kind of non-consent) as well as for the messages it sends (i.e. unrealistic expectations of sexual interactions/relationships–especially for the impressionable and inexperienced–as well as unhealthy objectification of women, fetishizing of violence/aggression against women, and reinforcing misogynistic and rape-culture paradigms).
I believe that a more open, honest, mature, realistic, and responsible dialogue about both the virtues/vices of the church’s sexual teachings, as well as the virtues/vices of pornography and other sexual media is essential if we hope for people to have more healthy, fulfilling, and safe sexual relationships. That is something I hope for at least, hence this podcast. 🙂
Thank you again for contributing your constructive thoughts to this dialogue.
Scott here. I’m not comfortable with some types of porn either! There’s some very…niche stuff out there that holds no interest for me (or a lot of people). But I’ve also come to understand that sexuality is as diverse, complex, and mysterious as people are. I heard a great analogy where a guy said that sexuality is like a bowl of ice cream. Everyone has their own bowl and then they get to decide what they’re going to put on their ice cream. Do they like gummy bears? Great! Good for them. But what if you don’t like gummy bears on your ice cream. No problem! You don’t have to have gummy bears on your ice cream because it’s YOUR ice cream. You can have sprinkles, carmel, marshmallows, raisins, garlic croutons, or whatever else you want on your ice cream, and no one else has the right to tell you that you can’t or shouldn’t like that on your ice cream (with the obvious and VERY important consent caveat).
I feel like a lot of culture’s models (Mormonism is just one example) of “legitimate” sexuality are so narrow and rigid that there’s a lot of unnecessary anxiety, frustration, and dissatisfaction out there even among (especially among?) committed partners. It makes me sad.
I feel like in this podcast we are still giving porn way too much power. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle in that porn consumption (while probably NOT the best thing in the world) is certainly not something that should cause one to be bogged down with guilt or feel that the best course of action is an abandonment of faith altogether. These two instances are giving it and other’s reactions to this common indiscretion way too much power. There are people in our lives to love, to hold dear, and to cherish. I’ve learned from unfortunate experience that porn can drive you apart in your approach to it, and most of that I believe is how you allow it to define your personal character.
As a side note: In regards to Alma’s passage about sexual sin being akin to murder:
I interpret this scripture to mean that Alma’s sexual exploits were a hindrance to people joining the church and thus not being enabled with the saving power they otherwise may have had if he had not been involved in such actions. Thus, by this alone and people’s ignorance because of one man’s actions, the sin was probably akin to murder, not just because he masturbated, fornicated, etc.
Thank you for being courageous enough to share such personal stories to the point of exposure from church leaders, families, and even complete strangers like myself. I know that couldn’t be easy and you should be applauded for such bravery.
Hi, Scott here. Thank you for your response. I definitely see your point in feeling like my abandonment of the church over how it taught me to view my porn use still seems like giving porn too much power. Until about two years ago I absolutely believed I would live and die in the church: Leaving was never even considered as possible reality. Unfortunately, my shame and self-hatred were so tied to my faith and relationship with God and the church that I had to suspend those beliefs (i.e. the church might be wrong about this whole “sin next to murder” stuff) in order to find peace and relief. My faith crisis was an unintended consequence of that process. I am scheduled to do an interview with Natasha Helfer-Parker in a couple of weeks where I will talk more specifically about my journey and process and will go into this chain of events in more detail. If I wasn’t sitting on 20 years of pain thanks to the beliefs I held about porn use and what God and the church thought about it, I very likely would still be in the church. Part of my hope with this podcast is that it can help people sharing a similar experience to find peace and acceptance sooner rather than later so that finding resolution doesn’t have to come at the cost of their faith. It wasn’t the porn that cost me my faith, it was the 20 years of pain and the resulting resentment, anger, and sadness that is so interwoven with my faith. It’s going to take a while to disentangle it all.
As for the “sin next to murder” scripture, I think yours is a much more reasonable interpretation. In the last few years I’ve read (and made) many arguments for interpreting that scripture differently from its common use in the church. I feel like Alma 39:5 is such a “nuclear option” type scripture in that, if your goal is to reduce sexual impropriety and promiscuity among believers, this will do the trick, but the collateral damage is significant and sometimes catastrophic.